Curse

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 28, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

I think someone has to check what Rock-Scissors-Papper means....

Rock-paper-scissiors is where two teams are winning or loosing against each other because of equally powerful 8v8 builds that destroy the first team to make a mistake and/or the last team to engage their build.

Gank races are simple contests of speed and damage output. They do not involve direct PvP at all, just NPC beatdown.

Beat_Go_Stick · Jun 28, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Lol, you guys forget that the gimicky build are all based on high-end GvG. If all that matters is the build, then how come we have seen a total domination of the top20 by guilds like WM, Te, iQ, Evil, Rift, etc.?

My guild could run into a GvG match with WM with an identical build and we would likely get our diaper changed after they paddle our asses raw. Focussing on the build of these high-end matches and calling them all "cookie-cutter" gives you and your guild no excuse for not being in Germany with these top teams.

So, if its Rock, Paper, Scissors, why are you still here? Lemme guess, you wouldn't want to be there anyway cause it would cut into your busy schedule?

On another note, the reason you see all the top level Guilds using these builds is because the best way to know how to beat a build is to run it, instantly recognize it, know its strengths and weaknesses first-hand, and be ready for what's to come. Personally I think being able to view GvG ladder games is a real shame. It makes it nearly impossible to pull out a secret build because there's no way to perfect it without others watching and disassembling it....

Alas, I guess we will see which Guilds & builds end up dominating. Focussing on the fact that everyone can see the most popular builds and run them to get used to how they work really doesn't give credit to the Guilds who are able to do so best. Many of these Guilds created the cookie cutters that stamped out these builds. Saying they are using standardized builds just because others watched them play and started using their builds en masse doesn't make much sense to me.....

ryse · Jun 28, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

The obvious solution is of course to make sure their Guild Thief dies quickly, which of course is a hard task itself...

I see your point, and it is true that many, many matches now quicky devolve into gank races. However, this is still not Rock-Paper-Scissors, as josh claimed.

Not every map has a thief.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 28, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryse

Not every map has a thief.

Yes, and those are the ones where you wind up cutting straight to the gank or try for an 8v8 fight.

Look, people obviously are misreading what I said originally. All I wish to make clear is that Guild Wars should almost never boil down to rock-paper-scissors because you should have many more options than that. If you set yourself up to get stuck in such a situation, then you likely missed out on an opportunity along the way.

Eonwe · Jun 28, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I agree with you that Guild Wars should not be a "rock-paper-scissors" type of a game. However, if you look at the last week of competitive ladder play, it would be accurate to claim that it has indeed boiled down to a "rock-paper-scissors" contest. I don't see anything wrong with Josh's comparison.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 28, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I agree with you that Guild Wars should not be a "rock-paper-scissors" type of a game. However, if you look at the last week of competitive ladder play, it would be accurate to claim that it has indeed boiled down to a "rock-paper-scissors" contest. I don't see anything wrong with Josh's comparison.

GvG strategy has definitely boiled down, I'll agree to that. I only disagree with the rock-paper-scissors comparison because it's a gross oversimplification. Josh, your article is top-notch, and I really don't have any problem with it (although, looking back at my previous posts, it probably seems that way). I just can't stand the rock-paper-scissors concept. It's just a bad metaphor, really.

josh axiom · Jun 28, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

sleazeh, I love you. That may very well have been the most well thought out forum post I've ever read.

With regard to this continual discussion of r/p/s defiintions, and "out-manuevering" them being a simple task, I'd just like to make it clear that I play against these teams on a daily basis, and rely on tactics and maneuvering to get my team wins. But it's a simple matter of map sometimes, and with the newer crop of gimmicks, sometimes even that isn't important.

Try playing triple-smite on Warrior Isle, for example. If you split, you are then forced to let their team into your base or be slaughtered at the flag-stand with an underpowered force. By the time the other half of your split gets back to the stand to help out, the majority of your NPC force is likely dead. Now on Imperial Isle, you can kite the damage, blackout smiters to limit DPS, over-extend to interrupt skills, water-hex the thumpers so they can't reach their targets - but that can't be done in a map with a tiny corridor and nowhere to run.

With SB/RI, splitting gives you absolutely zero tactical advantage. The nature of the spike itself means only 4 casters have to be present to ensure success. This means they can send a runner off to grab a flag, leave 5 at the stand (they have tons of defense), and send a monk and a ritualist back to their base to deal with the threat. You won't kill one NPC, a three-way split won't be possible, they'll continue to retain flag control, you will take losses at the stand, and though you may force a longer match, it won't be a victorious one. SB/RI spike has to be fought head-on, and has to be beaten with a very versatile build structure.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 28, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I'll agree that the map plays a huge factor. Don't get me wrong - I agree with your article's analyses and it's a great guide to the "FotM"s this season. I just hate using rock-paper-scissors as a metaphor for GvG, because you always have or at least had more options.

With SB/RI however, we have the exception. Any build that can deal its entire damage output with four people and still have sufficient defense (admittedly, mostly through offense) to control the flagstand is a huge tactical problem for their opponents. Traditional split squad tactics force the enemy team to either fight you for both spots or accept defeat at one. SB/RI can win at both spots almost unconditionally unless you have the skill-based counter.

Thus, I retire my argument because with SB/RI you will have one hell of a time trying to fight them 8v8 or in a split. In such a case, you have to have your hex removal going or you are 100% screwed, and that is the essense of rock-paper-scissiors gameplay. I still maintain that Triple Smite can be outmaneuvered by splitting almost universally because in a split environment it is hard to do enough damage.

Bio The Hazard · Jun 28, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Great Article I enjoyed the read!

We seem to be falling into a trend with GvG seasons.. some combination that works is thought up and everyone uses it.. then its nerfed... great build.. nerfed.. great build.. nerfed... my question is... when will the cycle end and when will we get a sense of regularity in the GvG season...

P.S. Rock Paper Scissors ftw.

Bio-Flame · Jun 28, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

I agree with you that Guild Wars should not be a "rock-paper-scissors" type of a game.

I tottaly disagree. You obviously don't understand the real concept behind rock-scissors-paper metagame.
It's the most healthy gaming enviorment there is (in a game around team builds, that is).

I don't want to go into much detail here but just think that the R-S-P keeps any specific enviorment from becoming stagnant. Without it, a game based around team-builds would rapidly become boring.

One thing for you to think about: Why do you think ANET gave so many classes so many ways to deal with each other and why do you think ANET made some classes inherently weak against some others?
Tip- think about R-S-P

PS - Btw, R-S-P isn't about 2 teams... lol.. it isn't even about 3 teams, nor 4, nor 5. It isn't about A team, it's about a METAGAME!
I say again that someone needs to learn the concept of R-S-P applied to gaming. It isn't as obvious as you'd might think or you wouldn't have said the preposterous stuff you said.

Red Locust · Jun 28, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Very nice writeup.

I can almost guarantee that, with the many powerful gimmicks currently flying around, there will be many guilds that will pull out the triple-smite, RI spike or FC spike card for an easy win, because it simply is a game of rock-paper-scissors, and if your chances of advancing are slim, you might as well pull out one of the three and try your luck. I'm expecting these finals to be very unpredictable.

Eonwe · Jun 29, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

PS - Btw, R-S-P isn't about 2 teams... lol.. it isn't even about 3 teams, nor 4, nor 5. It isn't about A team, it's about a METAGAME!
I say again that someone needs to learn the concept of R-S-P applied to gaming. It isn't as obvious as you'd might think or you wouldn't have said the preposterous stuff you said.

A metagame... of gimmicks? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say, nor do I think that anything you said has any relevance to Josh's article or what others have posted throughout this thread.

I'm going to assume that you've never played any sort of high-end GvG judging from the fact that you enjoy a "rock-paper-scissors" form of Guild Wars where matches are not decided by skill or tactics but rather by who gets lucky and brings the gimmick build that the other team is not prepared for.

It's sort of like a slot machine, just hit enter battle and hope that you have the counters for either the rock, the paper, or the scissors. One of the teams that pops up is bound to be running some sort of gimmick that you are not prepared for, and even though they may be 10x worse as a player than you, it doesn't matter -- you don't have the tools to counter their build. Now, you could bring those tools, but how does that leave you against other types of builds? That's where the rock paper scissors metaphor comes from. You can't prepare for every gimmick that's out there right now with one build, and preparing for one leaves you vulnerable to the other. So, you might as well prepare for one, or just run one yourself, and hope that the team you face is not prepared.

Greedy Gus · Jun 29, 2006, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

The universal "gimmick" counter is to outmaneuver them, which is easy since these builds usually need to have all seven participants at the same spot to be effective. I can appreciate that the "gimmicks" kill very, very quickly, but to do so there must first be an engagement of some sort. Do not let them "gimmick" you and they can do nothing but watch while you run them arround in circles while you get the morale boost or a gank on their Guild Lord.

There is of course no possibility of facing down every single "gimmick" with a balanced build and winning, but that is what the rest of the rather large Guild Hall map is for.

970th Deathspawn Elite DsE Am 1026 28 50

Outmaneuver many gimmicks recently? I just don't understand how inexperienced players are arguing in this thread and others with people who obviously do have high level gvg experience. It's like the classic phenomenon of observer mode warriors.

Dozens of players from top level guilds are complaining that the game has become somewhat like paper/rock/scissors in that the games are practically decided when the gates open due to the number of gimmick builds. Now if your guild is running a balanced build at the top of the ladder and is still destroying gimmick builds through tactics and you disagree, then that's a valid point of view I think everyone wants to hear. But just chiming in and telling people that you disagree, they're wrong about their observations, or how easy some builds are to counter, this just strikes me as ridiculous if you have no success to show for all your knowledge.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 29, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

970th Deathspawn Elite DsE Am 1026 28 50

Outmaneuver many gimmicks recently? I just don't understand how inexperienced players are arguing in this thread and others with people who obviously do have high level gvg experience. It's like the classic phenomenon of observer mode warriors.

Dozens of players from top level guilds are complaining that the game has become somewhat like paper/rock/scissors in that the games are practically decided when the gates open due to the number of gimmick builds. Now if your guild is running a balanced build at the top of the ladder and is still destroying gimmick builds through tactics and you disagree, then that's a valid point of view I think everyone wants to hear. But just chiming in and telling people that you disagree, they're wrong about their observations, or how easy some builds are to counter, this just strikes me as ridiculous if you have no success to show for all your knowledge.

Actually, we have faced many of the guilds bound for Germany, such as War Machine, Last Pride, iQ, and quite a few others (not that we did very well, but we have faced them). I think you can appreciate our goal of GvGing as much as possible instead of GvGing to get our rank as high as possible. Yes, we have faced triple smite builds, and yes we have beaten them with split squad tactics. No, split squad is not as viable as it was before Factions because, as you say, there are too many gimmicks.

My original point (and this was always one of Moskel's points when he discussed GvG builds) was that if the game is decided out of the gate, you have built your build too rigidly and cannot deal with whatever the enemy is throwing at you. As was pointed out (and you would know this if you had read the entire thread instead of glancing it over and then flaming me) SB/RI is the exception because it is too strong to engage even when divided in two, so it cannot be outmaneuvered OR overpowered without the "rock" for its "scissors".

Yes, to a certain extent the metagame has now devolved into rock-paper-scissiors matches, but there still remains, in many cases, more options than direct, predetermined engagement. I am certain that the top guilds realize this, and hopefully this will not always mean instant full-scale engagement with the knowledge that one team will already win.

Mysterial · Jun 29, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

SB/RI can be beaten by one copy of Expel Hexes as it will always remove RI. Holy Veil will also give you plenty of time if you can get it in fast enough (most seem to forget that it doubles hex casting times in addition to the removal effect they usually bring it for). I know I make that sound a lot easier than it is but you don't really need to expend that many skill slots to counter it. It certainly shouldn't be enough to be crippling your build against others.

Triple smite is worse to me and I don't understand why Zealot's Fire didn't get properly nerfed back in the Ether Renewal smiter days let alone why it's survived until now. The thing singlehandedly beats most other caster damage in the game for only an up front 10 energy and you still get the effect of whatever you're casting to trigger it. The only question is getting the energy to cast those spells to trigger it. They can nerf Air of Enchantment, but somebody will figure out another way to get the energy eventually and we'll be right back here again.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 29, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

SB/RI can be beaten by one copy of Expel Hexes as it will always remove RI. Holy Veil will also give you plenty of time if you can get it in fast enough (most seem to forget that it doubles hex casting times in addition to the removal effect they usually bring it for). I know I make that sound a lot easier than it is but you don't really need to expend that many skill slots to counter it. It certainly shouldn't be enough to be crippling your build against others.

Triple smite is worse to me and I don't understand why Zealot's Fire didn't get properly nerfed back in the Ether Renewal smiter days let alone why it's survived until now. The thing singlehandedly beats most other caster damage in the game for only an up front 10 energy and you still get the effect of whatever you're casting to trigger it. The only question is getting the energy to cast those spells to trigger it. They can nerf Air of Enchantment, but somebody will figure out another way to get the energy eventually and we'll be right back here again.

Indeed, SB/RI can be beaten with caster shutdown, but this is indeed a rock-paper-scissiors type of thing; if you don't have enough caster shutdown, you/re screwed.

Triple smite is ugly, agreed, but the fact that it requires melee range to work effectively means that kiting and snares will negate a good deal of its damage. Enchantment stripping usually takes care of the rest. Now, if you don't have snares and disenchants, your only real option is to try and outmaneuver them, but when facing triple smite you ALWAYS have that option, though it may be less viable on some maps.

Eonwe · Jun 29, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Triple smite forces three of your casters into kiting, meaning that they aren't casting anything. Pulling one or two Zealot's Fires along the line isn't going to do anything at all, and most of the time it is covered by either an Aegis or a Tainted Flesh. If you're willing to stand still for that one or two seconds and get pounded on to pull off what might not even be a Zealot's Fire, then go for it. Another thing, snares *can* help, yes. But do you really think that if you stand around for 3 or 5 seconds that you're not going to either be on the ground or dead, not to mention that most teams bring numerous copies of smite hex.

About the whole out-manuevering thing. If a team decides to send let's say three guys around the side, all the Triple Smite team does is smash the remaining 5 players at the stand, go into your base, and win. You can't out gank that amount of damage.

This is simply from what I have observed over the past week running Triple Smite.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jun 29, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Triple smite forces three of your casters into kiting, meaning that they aren't casting anything. Pulling one or two Zealot's Fires along the line isn't going to do anything at all, and most of the time it is covered by either an Aegis or a Tainted Flesh. If you're willing to stand still for that one or two seconds and get pounded on to pull off what might not even be a Zealot's Fire, then go for it. Another thing, snares *can* help, yes. But do you really think that if you stand around for 3 or 5 seconds that you're not going to either be on the ground or dead?

About the whole out-manuevering thing. If a team decides to send let's say three guys around the side, all the Triple Smite team does is smash the remaining 5 players at the stand, go into your base, and win. You can't out gank that amount of damage.

This is simply from what I have observed over the past week running Triple Smite.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of Rend Enchantments for the disenchanting, but you bring up a good point about the split. Your remaining players at the stand need to have a very solid defense to hold their own while the other squad ganks. That's damn hard. I appologize for stating how "easy" it was to outmaneuver triple smite. A better word might be "straightforward" (team A goes one way and team B goes another, etc.).

Anyways, the team at the flag stand only needs to hold on for a short while, and enough enchantment removal will easily accomplish this, but otherwise snares are all you have going. That means a hell of a lot of kiting and that makes it hard to make a strong defensive stand anywhere. Really, it would wind up being a timing issue as to who can gank first, so if you are going to split on a Triple Smite, your best option is to do so IMMEDIATELY, because you have very, very little time to work with. I have definitely done this before, although of course not against iQ or anything. One thing to keep in mind is that you can usually survive for a bit by having your "defense team" turtle, assuming your protection is strong enough. Your only real goal here is to keep the Guild Lord alive as long as possible, and in the very beginning of the match he takes a good bit of time to kill.

It's quite far from a guaranteed win, but it does give you a chance. There is no question in my mind that triple smite is completely overpowered, just like SB/RI, but at least maneuvering gives you a chance to win if you don't have a "rock" when the other team has "scissors".

crimsonfilms · Jun 29, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Immediate split on Triple Smite only accelerate your defeat. What ever defensive split you leave will be rolled over at or near the flagstand. At this point the defensive team has 2 choices - run back & turtle or kill the thief and keep your guild hall door closed. You turtle and it plays in to their hands because you open the door, they run pass the defensive team and kill the monk and Bodyguards.
Kill the thief? Good luck on that. You die faster and the thief will still stand (usually tagging along the only boon monk way in the back).

While your 2 Frenzied warrior cripple along to the Bodyguard, the triple smite team is half way done with your GL.
You are dead wrong in your tactics with triple smite. The key to triple smite is to shutdown the 1 or 2 smiter monks and out damage their only boon. Once you collapse 2 monks (boon and/or smite) the rest will collapse. It is not easy because they can run Aegis Chain. Some bring water ele to slow you down instead of Taint. etc. etc. Well of Profane and/or Taint with Humility is another way.

Regarding teh RPS analogy - Josh is dead accurate.

The analogy refers to that in order to counter the current metagame (3 smite, SB/RI, 2W/2Mes) you need specific and not so flexible skillbar. Thus your skill selection itself is the deciding factor (like if 2 people selects rock and paper respectively before showing it).

Yes skill and execution still plays a part. But when an overload build that is strong offensively and defensively, skill can often takes a back seat.

You either decide a counter for one or the other but not really for both. Bringing 3-4 hex removal and infuse Health and/or Dwaynas Kiss has a big effect on balance builds - especially those that do not have Healing Monk builds (since you need significant investment in Healing Prayers to make Dwaynas Kiss effective). Healing Monks also do not have the durability of a Boon Monk - so against triple smite, your healing monk is as not as effective as boon monk with RoF (although Healing Seed can help but who brings that. The recharge and cast time is killer).

To shutdown smite you need to bring some mesmer and/or necro skills.

Now trying to counter both builds poses a difficult task when trying to maintain a balance attack for other builds (including the ever popular 2war/2mes/2emo build).

Bio-Flame · Jun 29, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I still think you don't understand the R-S-P metagame.
R-S-P isn't about "a" build but rather concept of builds.

You have several concept of build but I am going to oversimply using just 3 types: Spike,Split, Balanced
Let's just suppose (and this is not a real theory here) that in "theory":

Split wins against Spike
Balanced wins against Split
Spike wins against balanced

(This is only as an example, not a real 100% analysis).

Usually, this would create a R-S-P metagame. You win against some, you loose against the other.
Of course, this can't be true 100% or nobody would ever play a game like this. Why would you play a 30 minute match if you knew that you had already lost? Obviously there are other factors to take into consideration: individual play skill, group play skill, different maps and sheer luck. All these factors will allow you to overcome the other team even if you face an up-hill match.
This obviously makes the game fun.

Now, currently there is not R-S-P. There are some builds, usually called "gimmick" builds that win more than their "fair" share of the matches, against which you can't make a good counter build.
It's like if you have a Spike build (ROCK) against which there is no real counter (no papper).

Now, top players and top-guilds will always play what they feel is "the" best build that will win most games. Add the fact that today there is a "best" build, or at least a build that is SOOOOO much better than the others that it will win a big % of the matches..... then you'll have a degenerated enviorment.

What I feel today is that the problem is not with the R-S-P metagame but in with the fact that there is NO R-S-P metagame right now. There is no "real" effective papper to stop the spike builds......